Are you guilty of putting a ‘when’ condition on your happiness, that you won’t find yourself being genuinely happy unless you achieve this, this, and that?
The great Western myth of “I’ll be happy when…” has greatly affected people worldwide that lots of people have now associated their value to their accomplishments or their actions’ results.
We all want to be happy but don’t always know how, and at some point, it just led to this.
But what happens if you have achieved numerous accomplishments already, and yet, you’re still feeling empty?
Or worse—what if your time has come to an end already, and yet, you haven’t lived the life you deserve to live happily, just because you’re so fixated on wanting more, more, and more from what you’ve already achieved?
There’s nothing wrong with accomplishing goals; what shouldn’t be done is making your wins an equivalent of your value as a human being. Join us as we learn how to live the earned life with today’s guest, Marshall Goldsmith.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith is the #1 New York Times bestselling author of ‘What Got You Here Won’t Get You There’, ‘Triggers’, and ‘The Earned Life’. His books have sold over 2 million copies. He’s the only Thinkers50 two-time #1 Leadership Thinker in the World. Before being inducted into the Hall of Fame, he was the top-ranked executive coach for ten years.
Why you have to check out this episode
- Learn to align your aspirations, ambitions, and actions;
- Understand why you should never fixate on results and enjoy the process instead; and
- Find out why you should learn to let go of the addiction to putting a when on your happiness and just live life as happy as you can be every moment
“…Never place your value as a person on the outcomes of what you achieve…You’re not going to be happier when you spend more time with the family. You’re not going to be happier when you do different work. Key to being happy is to be happy.”
– Marshall Goldsmith
Topics Covered
00:30 – Dr. Marshall answers: Why do leaders need coaching, even if they’re already very successful?
02:04 – What coaching can do for a very successful leader: Dr. Marshall discusses what makes his coaching unique and different from other coaches
04:24 – To be better people with the people they care for: On making sure behavior change exists along with a better life during the Life Plan Review coaching
10:27 – Dr. Marshall’s Stakeholder Centered Coaching process explained: “I only work with people that care”
16:35 – The Earned Life: Discussing how we need higher aspirations in life, how our ambitions are related to our achievements, and why we need to enjoy the process
20:03 – “Never place your value as a human on the outcomes of what you achieve”: How Dr. Marshall helps people let go of addiction to the Western myth of ‘when’ happiness
24:22 – The marshmallow story: Sharing the story behind Dr. Marshall’s decision to write his latest book, ‘The Earned Life’
26:16 – “They did it, not me”: On people who study and teach Dr. Marshall’s stuff starting a school and other people using his stuff
27:16 – The new project: What Dr. Marshall has been working on recently
31:37 – A piece of advice, from Dr. Marshall, to coaches and leaders
Key Takeaways
“As I changed in my coaching and my clients became more and more successful, I began to realize that more achievement is not what they need; they need to be happy and make peace with life.”
“One of the people in our group is Safi Bahcall. Safi Bahcall is a brilliant scientist. He said, “I finally realized something. Happiness and achievement are independent variables. Achieve to achieve, and be happy to be happy. Achievement is not going to make you happy.””
Connect with Marshall Goldsmith
- Website: www.marshallgoldsmith.com
- Email: marshall@marshall.goldsmith.com
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marshallgoldsmith/
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Marshall.Goldsmith.Library
Full Interview Transcript
(Note: This transcript was created with an AI transcription service. Please forgive any transcription or grammatical errors. We probably sounded better in real life.)
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Welcome to the Excellent Executive International Leadership podcast. We are very pleased to have Marshall Goldsmith on our Excellent International Leadership podcast. Welcome, Marshall.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Thank you so much for inviting me.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Yes!
DR. MARSHALL ANSWERS: WHY DO LEADERS NEED COACHING, EVEN IF THEY’RE ALREADY VERY SUCCESSFUL?
Dr. Katrina Burrus
And you are the guru of coaching, so I will start right away with that. Why would you say that leaders absolutely need coaching, even if they’re very successful? Because that’s your point.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
The people I coach are incredibly successful people. If you look at my books and see who endorses the books, these are people like the five CEOs of the Year in the United States, and President of the World Bank, and on and on; they’re all very successful people. I’m often asked, “Why do they want to have a coach? They’re already successful. Why do the top ten tennis players have a coach? They’re already successful.”
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
One reason they’re successful is they have a coach. The important thing I’m very proud of in coaching is I really worked hard in my career to make coaching about helping great people get better, not about fixing losers. My whole brand is helping successful leaders. If you do a Google search for helping successful leaders, the first 500 references, 450 are about me and the rest of the world is 50. I work very hard to pioneer this concept.
And why do they need? Number one, the world changes. No matter how much you did yesterday, the world changes. And number two, the new challenges come up. A very wise person wrote a book once called ‘What Got You Here Won’t Get You There’.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Exactly.
WHAT COACHING CAN DO FOR A VERY SUCCESSFUL LEADER: DR. MARSHALL DISCUSSES WHAT MAKES HIS COACHING UNIQUE AND DIFFERENT FROM OTHER COACHES
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Okay, so they need a coach—the life is changing and to adapt to it. In a sense, a coach gives a certain perspective because they see the world slightly differently. Tell us a little bit more what coaching can do for a very successful leader.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
There are different types of coaching. I don’t make any value judgments on what’s good or bad. I’m a Buddhist. Buddha said, only do what works or teach if it works for you. So, my coaching is not exactly like most people’s coaching.
In my coaching, first, as a leadership coach, people get confidential feedback, they pick important things to improve, they talk to people, they ask for suggestions, and they follow up on a regular basis, and we actually measure them getting better. And if they go through this process, they almost always get better. Also, I worked on something which is really more of a group effort called a Life Plan Review now. Over COVID, my friend Mark Thompson and I spent 600 hours with 60 amazingly successful people, and every week, they talked about their life. They talked about what went well, what they could do better, and they all try to help each other.
So basically, I’m more of a facilitator. I do give people ideas; I encourage them, though, to get ideas from people all around them. And especially in our Life Plan Review coaching, they get ideas from everybody, and it’s not a secret who they are. This president of the Olympic Committee, head of the World Bank, head of the Rockefeller Foundation, we had great athletes, we had Broadway star; we had all kinds of amazing people.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
And you also get feedback from the company, if I understood correctly, so that they can get feedback that they can’t probably get directly and they’re pretty lonesome at the top, so you provide them with feedback they couldn’t really get by themselves, if I understood correctly.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Yeah. I give them confidential feedback, and you’re saying it quite accurate. The only thing I would challenge is it’s not pretty lonesome at the top; it is extremely lonesome at the top. It used to be lonesome at the top; now, it is way more lonesome. With social media, cancel culture, people are afraid to say anything. And so really, they don’t have anyone to talk to. One person in our group said, “It’s nice to have a 1-hour per week deck like a human being.”
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Very well.
TO BE BETTER PEOPLE WITH THE PEOPLE THEY CARE FOR: ON MAKING SURE BEHAVIOR CHANGE EXISTS ALONG WITH A BETTER LIFE DURING THE LIFE PLAN REVIEW COACHING
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Tell us a little bit about your process of Life Plan Review.
Dr. Marshall Burrus
What happened in that is originally, my whole focus as a coach was helping successful people achieve positive change in leadership behavior—and I still do that, and it’s a great thing. As I’ve grown older, though, many of the people I coach are already amazingly successful. For example, Wingman coaching is worth $4 billion, so I said, “What am I supposed to do? Get you up to 4.1 billion?” Who cares, right? Now, I just try to help people. I also have a better life, because many of these people already achieved so much, they don’t need me to help them achieve something.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Right. So, there’s two questions that come. First, how do you make sure that the behavior change exists with time? And second, what is the shift in the approach to make them have a better life?
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Well, those are two different questions. Let’s do one at a time.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Right.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
First, on the behavioral coaching question, it’s very simple—we measure it. You have to follow up with your coworkers, and we measure it not according to you, according to them. Do you achieve positive behavior? I wrote an article. If anybody would like to see it, send me an email: marshall@marshallgoldsmith.com. It’s called Leadership as a Context for It. 86,000 people in the article. If you do this stuff, it works. If you get feedback, you talk to people, you follow up, you can actually measure positive, long-term change in behavior, not as judged by yourself but as judged by the important people in your life. I have a degree in math, so I’m very big on the concept of measurement.
In the Life Plan Review, it’s a little bit different. In the Life Plan Review, we have some people complete something called daily questions. Every day, they evaluate themselves on questions that are most important in their lives, and they write their own questions. And then every weekend, they’d say, “Here’s what I did well… here’s what I’ll do better.”
Both processes involve something called feed forward, where you consistently ask people for ideas, you listen, you thank them, you don’t judge the ideas, you don’t promise to do everything, and you just follow up over and over and over again.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Give us some examples of the questions you ask these leaders or that they voluntarily create these questions.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
For example, one of the guys in a group—this is a funny story—is named Pau Gasol. Pau is just a wonderful guy. He’s a great basketball star. He played for the Los Angeles Lakers, won two world championships, and he’s getting ready to try out for the Olympics. And at the time, he’s 41, which is not easy.
He’s in our group, and the one thing he picked to work on was being “present with my wife”. Pau’s got plenty of money; he doesn’t need money or status or any of that stuff. But his wife said, “Look, this Olympics thing is a big hit for me. We’re not getting paid any money for this. It’s good for you to say you’ve been five times the Olympics and represent the country, but I don’t even get to go. So, I have one request—just when you’re home, show up. When you’re physically with me, be with me; don’t get checked out.” So, he actually works on that.
One week we go, “How’d you do?” “Not too good, right?” And we talked about what happened, and he said, “I was tired.” I said, “Well, that’s fascinating. You were tired. My son and I paid $1,000 each one night to watch you play in the world championship against the Celtics, and you won the world championship. We’re running down the court like a maniac where you’re tired and said exhausted.” “Coach called time out.” “Did you say to the coach, ‘Coach, I’m tired?’” He said, “I never told the coach I was tired my whole life.” So I said, “Do you think your wife is impressed?”
Well, half the stuff on the Life Plan Review doesn’t have anything to do with work. More than half of it is about home, how we treat people at home.
For the people I coach at work, these are great professionals. I mean, Pau Gasol is playing basketball; he knows he’s playing basketball. He’s not checked out. When you’re checked out in the NBA, that’s not a good thing; it’s not good for anybody. You have to pay attention, right? If you’re the CEO of a multibillion-dollar company, you need to pay attention; you can’t just sort of daydream. What happens, though, oftentimes when we go home, we lose that sense of professionalism and attention, and we just kind of check out with the kids, with the family, with the partner.
And so, a lot of what we work on in the Life Plan Review isn’t just at work; it’s about how people act at home.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Excellent. To be better people with the people they care for.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Exactly.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Are there any other examples you can give where maybe they want to do charities or things like that?
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
I do a lot of that; I do a lot of volunteer work. To me, my work with volunteers is exactly the same as my work with people for pay; it’s absolutely no difference. I mean, they’re leaders, they get feedback and follow up. I was a CEO of the Year in the Red Cross, one year, I’ve done volunteer work for the Girl Scouts, for the military. To me, my job is virtually identical. Doesn’t matter what country I’m in, doesn’t matter what industry I’m in, I do the same thing—works all around the world, works in any kind of company, for profit, not for profit. To me, that’s pretty irrelevant. I just try to help leaders work in all kinds of companies.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
So you don’t see any difference if you have a CEO from, let’s say, Korean company that you coach?
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Not in my job.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Yeah, because first…
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Look, I’ve coached the people in India, I’ve coached people from Korea, I’ve coached the people from Saudi Arabia, I’ve coached people in France—all around the world. My process is always the same. And guess what? It works.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Yeah.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
And it’s documented, and I’ve got research. It works around the world; there’s no country it doesn’t work.
DR. MARSHALL’S STAKEHOLDER CENTERED COACHING PROCESS EXPLAINED: “I ONLY WORK WITH PEOPLE THAT CARE”
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Tell us a little bit more about your process.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
The process of the behavioral coaching is called Stakeholder Centered Leadership and I think 4000 people have been certified to do this; thousands and thousands have used it. The essence of the process is, first, identify. Let’s imagine you’re the future CEO, okay? And I’m hired to coach you.
Now, number one, I only work with people that care. People say, “How to convince people to try to change if they don’t want to?” The answer is I don’t. I don’t work with people who don’t care. They don’t care; I don’t care. They’re adults. You’re all successful. Nobody’s dying here. You don’t want to change? Fine. Don’t. Just don’t waste my time. I only work with clients that care. I only work on behavioral issues. I don’t work on strategic or functional issues. And I only work with people who are going to give it a chance; I don’t work with people that are going to get fired anyway. So, I’m not in the fix the loser business; I’m in the help the winner business. If they don’t meet those criteria to start with, I don’t work with them. Now, they have to do what I say. If they don’t do it, I’m not judging them; I just don’t work with them.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
I see. So, I’m going to quickly ask you a question, because I’ve written a book about managing brilliant jerks. So, if you have a brilliant jerk that is a CEO of a company and the board has asked you, “Can you work with this person?” And he feels like if he doesn’t, he might lose his job. How would you handle that? Just out of curiosity.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
He has to do what I teach. He has to get feedback, he has to apologize, he has to follow up, he has to talk with people over time. If he doesn’t do it, it’s fine. I just won’t work with it. So, how do I deal with it? I don’t deal with it. I don’t have to deal with it. I only deal with people who want to get better. If they don’t want to get better, I’m not judging. It’s good to know somebody’s dealing with it; just not me. I don’t do that. I’m too old.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
I interrupted you. Tell us a little bit about your process.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Well, again, they get the feedback. Let’s say you’re the future CEO, okay? And then I’ve been hired to help you.
First, you and the CEO sit down, you tell me who are your key stakeholders. So, we make a list; typically, 18 or 20 people. I personally interview all 18 or 20 people and ask them five questions: what’s this person doing well? What do they need to do better? What situations bring out the best? Bring out the worst? Any ideas to help this person? I write a very long, detailed profile, which I’ve never seen anyone do it like this before, typically, and I sit down with them and go over it. “Here’s what you’re doing well. Here’s what you need to do better.” They say, “Okay, I feel good about this. I want to do better at that.” Then you would have to go back and talk to the CEO and get a sign off. CEO also agrees, “Yeah, that makes sense.” Or if you are the CEO, you have to go back to the board. Whoever it is, they got to go back to the next level up and get approval for everything I do. Once you get to sign off, then I say, “Okay, if she gets better at this stuff, judged by these people, it’s worth this money, yes or no? The answer is no, don’t hire me. The answer is yes, you can’t lose. She gets better, pay me. She doesn’t get better, it’s all free.” Pretty simple.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Yes.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Then what happens is you get feedback, and then you have to apologize. You go back and say, “Here’s my feedback. Overall, thank you for participating. I feel good about this and this and this, and here’s what I feel really good about. Thank you. I don’t know who said what. Many people said good things. And here’s what I want to improve. For example, I want to be a better listener. If I haven’t listened to you or the people around you, I’m sorry. Please accept my apologies. There’s no excuse. I’ll apologize.” They don’t want to apologize, fine; don’t work with me.
And then, they get input, they don’t promise to do everything, they listen, they talk to me, they talk to each other, they follow up, follow up, follow up, follow up, follow up; they get better, I get paid.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
That’s good. So, you get paid only if they get better?
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Only if they get better. I don’t get paid anything until the end of the project. 45 years.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Wow.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
It’s a great way. There’s a great way to test if someone believes what they’re saying—ask them a question. “Do you want to bet on it?” If they say, “I believe it, but I don’t want to bet on it,” they don’t actually believe it that much. If they say, “Here’s the money.” They believe it. “I bet on this every time.”
Dr. Katrina Burrus
That’s great.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
That’s why I don’t work with people who don’t care, because you see, I’m not going to get paid.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Yeah, right. Very good.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Very good?
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Yeah.
DR. MARSHALL EXPLAINS: “I GET A BUNCH OF BONUS CARDS MOST COACHES DON’T GET”
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Now, let’s say, though, let’s be perfectly fair to all the coaches who may be listening. I get a bunch of bonus cards most coaches don’t get.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Explain.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Well, let’s say you’re the future CEO. The CEO knows who I am, they know my reputation, they know who I’ve worked with, the board of directors knows who I am; it’s costing them a ton of money. I say, “If you do what I tell you, I’ll work with you. If you don’t, it’s okay. I’ll just go back to the CEO and tell him I can’t help you. I guess I just can’t help you. You need a better coach.” Oops. There really isn’t a better coach, is there? Your call. I don’t care. You want me to go back to the CEO and tell him I’m not going to do this? It’s fine. It’s your choice. We’re all adults here. Well, unless the person is an idiot, guess what?
Dr. Katrina Burrus
He’ll do it. Absolutely.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Get with a plan, Stan. I’ve only had one person say no, they wouldn’t do it, and this person got fired.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Yeah, I can imagine.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Idiot.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Okay. So, you’ve been coaching these CEOs a for a long, long time then.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Before there was anything called coaching.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Right. So, when did you start?
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
45 years ago or so.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Wow, you look young.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Thank you. Well, my birthday is in two days.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Oh, really?
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
I’m going to be 74, so I’m not that young.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Oh well, good for you. Happy birthday.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Thank you. Almost my birthday.
THE EARNED LIFE: DISCUSSING HOW WE NEED HIGHER ASPIRATIONS IN LIFE, HOW OUR AMBITIONS ARE RELATED TO OUR ACHIEVEMENTS, AND WHY WE NEED TO ENJOY THE PROCESS
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Okay. Then what prompted you to write ‘The Earned Life’? What was the shift of the coaching process you had and then “oh, wow”?
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
The shift in writing the book ‘The Earned Life’. ‘The Earned Life’ is not really about how to become a more effective leader or really how to become more effective at much of anything. Your earned life’s had a great life. As I changed in my coaching and my clients became more and more successful, I began to realize that more achievement is not what they need; they need to be happy and make peace with life.
And so, one of the things I do in the book is I talk about our aspirations. They need some higher sense of purpose. “Why am I doing this? Okay, I’m working 80 hours a week. That’s nice. Is there a reason?” So, I need a higher aspiration; number one. Number two, our ambitions are related to our achievements. That achievement needs to be connected to something higher. And number three, at the same time, you need to enjoy the process of doing it. You need to enjoy your life.
And all of those three, to the degree they’re aligned, “I have higher aspiration, I’m doing something that’s important and meaningful, I do achieve things, and I love doing it,” you just won. And if you don’t have those, you tend to lose. So you kind of need all three of those to be aligned. A lot of great points.
Historically, most human beings are lost in the action phase of that model. Just live day-to-day lives, they do whatever in front of them, they’re not lost in higher aspirations, they don’t achieve that much; just living. And most of our ancestors were poor people; that’s what they did—just live. They don’t have any choice. Nothing wrong with that; that’s most of the history of the world. Some people are stuck up in the aspiration phase. Very lofty goals, dreams, all that. They never do anything, but they’ve got a lot of lofty ideas.
The people I coach, in fact, the people listening to us right now have neither one of those problems. The people I coach, their problem is addiction to achievement. They are fixated on achievement, and they have often a misguided belief that if I achieve more, followed by I will be happy, I will be at peace, my life will be good if I only achieve more, make more money, do this, do that, get a PhD, achieve more, sell the best-selling book, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And the reality is…one of the people in our group is Safi Bahcall. Safi Bahcall is a brilliant scientist. He said, “I finally realized something. Happiness and achievement are independent variables. Achieve to achieve, and be happy to be happy. Achievement is not going to make you happy.” I said to Safi, “I’m glad you realized this. You already have a PhD in physics from Stanford, you’re a multi-zillionaire, you successfully started four corporations, and you’ve written a New York Times bestselling book. If that’s not enough achievement to make you happy, you think a little more is going to make any difference? No.” He said, “You’re right. Be happy to be happy and achieve to achieve.” The great Western myth is I’ll be happy when. “When I get the money, status, BMW, condominium, achievement, I’ll be happy then.” That’s wrong. There’s only one book that always has the same ending and they lived happily ever after; that is unfortunately called a fairy tale.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Yes. Right.
“NEVER PLACE YOUR VALUE AS A HUMAN ON THE OUTCOMES OF WHAT YOU ACHIEVE”: HOW DR. MARSHALL HELPS PEOPLE LET GO OF ADDICTION TO THE WESTERN MYTH OF ‘WHEN’ HAPPINESS
Dr. Katrina Burrus
But it is an addiction.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Yeah.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
An addiction is very hard to let go of.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Right.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
So, what’s your process to help them let go?
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Well, the first thing about the process is there’s nothing wrong with the achievement. I’m not saying they should stop trying to achieve; that’s not going to happen anyway. On the other hand, never place your value as a person on the outcomes of what you achieve. Never place your value as a human on the outcomes of what you achieve, for two reasons—reason number one, you don’t control the outcomes; the outcomes are many variables that you don’t control. And number two, more importantly, what happens after you achieve? How long does that make you happy? A week? A day, a month? Not much. What do you have to do? More. More and more. I’m a Buddhist. The Buddhist phrase it’s called is the hungry ghost. You’re always eating, but you’re never full.
One of my coaching guys that I talked about in the book is Albert Bourla. Albert is the CEO of Pfizer. I called him a year or so ago. I said, “Albert, how’s it going?” He said, “Oh, good year! You know, came with a vaccine, saved billionaire…” “Oh, good…” “Yeah, corporates’ pride through the roof, employee engagement are high, stock is an all time high…” He didn’t say this, but he was silver the year in the United States. “Oh, fantastic!” I said, “Albert, what’s your challenge?” He said, “I have a huge challenge—next year.” Next year? If his value as a human being is he has to do better than last year, he’ll never do better than last year. Michael Phelps, 25 gold medals, more than anyone in history. What did he think about doing after winning the 25th gold medal? Kill himself. Why? Achievement. Can’t do it anymore. Well, don’t worship that God.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Yes, but it’s super hard to get them out of their addiction and into fulfillment. First of all, his body can’t keep up with time. And put on another challenge, use the addictions to have something that’s more fulfilling, more family oriented. I don’t know. I’m asking you.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Well, the other thing is you’re not going to be happier when you spend more time with the family. You’re not going to be happier when you do different work. Key to being happy is be happy. You’re not going to be happy when you do anything. There is no when. You know, when. When I get to this place, everything will be okay; as if there’s a when. There is no when. There is no place. Every day, you take a breath and you start over; that’s it.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Every moment, you take a breath and start over.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Every moment, you take a new breath. That’s it. That’s life. There’s no when. I’m going to be happy when I do this, when I do that. Look. My friend, Dr. Jim Kim, I talked to him on the phone today. He’s president of World Bank. He saved 20 million lives when he’s in charge of partners in health; that’s good. Does he got to beat that next week? Does he got to save 10 million more? It’s the same thing; it’s money, it’s achievement, it’s even happiness, counting meaning, how many lives did I save? It’s all good stuff; I’m not saying that anything’s wrong with it. On the other hand, you’re not going to find peace through that. Never fixate on results.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
They get endorphins from it. Don’t you have some people that say, “Yeah, but this is what drives me, this is what motivates me, and you’re asking me to be just average?” Don’t you get some of those reactions?
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Not at all. I’m not saying people shouldn’t achieve results; I didn’t say that. I just said don’t make your values a human being based on results. And by the way, what I would say to such person is, look, if you want to be miserable your whole life and achieve things, knock yourself out. I don’t care. You’re an adult. If you would prefer being miserable and dissatisfied your whole life, but you achieve a lot and make a lot of money, keep at it. Go ahead, it’s okay.
THE MARSHMALLOW STORY: THE STORY BEHIND DR. MARSHALL’S DECISION TO WRITE HIS LATEST BOOK, ‘THE EARNED LIFE’
Dr. Katrina Burrus
What was the trigger for you to write your last book, ‘The Earned Life’?
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
It was basically all of these 600 hours I spent with these 60 people over COVID, listening to them talk about their lives. In real lives, we’re all humans. It doesn’t matter how much you achieve. If achievement would make you happy and find peace, these people will all be dancing off the ceiling every day.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Well, good. I encourage every listener to read the book, for sure, especially very successful people, or even everybody, to find that balance.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Everybody, yeah.
One other thing I love, I like the marshmallow story in the book. Now, there’s this famous research at Stanford called The Marshmallow Study where they take these kids, they give kid one marshmallow, say, “Kid, you eat one, you get one. But if you wait, two.” Allegedly, they did this longitudinal research that showed the kids that ate one all end up as losers, kids that eat two all get PhDs from Stanford; some nonsense. In any case, the desired message was delayed gratification is good. Delayed gratification is good. Almost every self-help book. Delayed gratification is good. Work out more. Go on a diet, do this. There’s only one problem with the research—they didn’t take the kid that had two marshmallows and say, “Kid, wait a little bit more…” Three. “Wait some more…” 4, 5, 10, 100, 1000. Where does the story end? An old man sitting in a room surrounded by thousands of uneaten marshmallows, waiting to die. Sometimes, you need to eat the damn marshmallow.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Yes. I love the story.
“THEY DID IT, NOT ME”: ON PEOPLE WHO STUDY AND TEACH DR. MARSHALL’S STUFF STARTING A SCHOOL AND OTHER PEOPLE USING HIS STUFF
Dr. Katrina Burrus
So, what tips would you give the coaches, because you have a school, right?
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Well, I don’t do it myself, but there are people that teach my process. Yeah, they’re very good.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Right. How long have you had your school?
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
I don’t know.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
A long time.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
A while. I don’t know.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
And what motivated you to start the school?
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Well, actually, I didn’t. People that study my stuff started it, not me.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
I see.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
My great friend, Frank Wagner, is the guy that really led all this, and he does a great job. By the way, anybody can use my stuff. I give everything away. Everything is online. You can copy, share, download, duplicate, use it any way you want to, modify it, change it, put your name on it; I don’t care.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
That’s very open of you, for sure.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Yeah, I give it away. You can’t steal any of my intellectual property; it’s impossible. Why? Can’t steal what people give you.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
That’s right.
THE NEW PROJECT: WHAT DR. MARSHALL’S BEEN WORKING ON RECENTLY
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
In fact, I’m working on my new project now.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Yeah, tell us about your new project.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Oh, it’s very exciting.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Good, I want to hear it.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Marshall Bot is coming.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Really?
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Marshall Bot. I have an AI company I’m working with called Fractal Analytics; they’re investing millions of bucks on this thing. I’m taking all I know and putting it online. There is going to be ultimately, hopefully, a person who looks and acts and sounds just like me; it’s going to know not only everything I know, it’s going to know everything about all the people I respect now, and you’re going to be able to talk with it, and it’s all free.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Wow.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Marshall Bot.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
When’s this coming out?
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
This is all new, so you can’t snap your fingers and make these things happen, but with the new AI technology, which you’ve probably been reading about, this is coming.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
I agree, totally. But where do you think a bot can not achieve the same thing as a person? Compare and contrast.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
A bot is not a person. On the other hand, the people that hire me as their coach are not going to be hiring a bot for free. Yeah, it’s just different. Everybody in the world is not going to be able to write checks and hire coaches. A bot is something that anybody can talk to. I don’t see the bot as competing with a coach. The bot is going to be something that’s free, that anybody can use anytime they want to.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
And your idea of making it free rather than minimal, what was the thinking behind that?
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Why not? My mission or my higher level of aspiration is help as many people as I can in the time I have left, and after I die, have a little better life.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Yeah.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
I’m not going to be around forever.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
It’s the same with all of us.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Yeah. I’m not going to be here forever, so this is the way I can pass on everything I know.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
That’s wonderful.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Thank you.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
And I think with time, maybe, who knows? Coaches will be out of a job. I don’t think so, completely.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
I don’t think so, because the thing is, you’re never going to be able to replace humans.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Okay?
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
The bot can give advice, and the bot probably will be able to give advice as well as most medical doctors, for example, or lawyers. On the other hand, the bot is not really having a dialogue with you as a person, so I think it’s different.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
And it’s different in what way?
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Well, the bot is not probably capable of knowing what it feels like to be a human being.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Now, you have some bots that can read your facial expressions, that can evaluate your emotional situation by the way you talk, about the way you breathe. It’s coming to that point.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Sort of, but the bot has never experienced pain.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
That’s true.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Or joy. So, the bots understanding of pain, of joy, of love, is reading a book. It’s not human.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
So, the empathy is, of course, not there.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Well, yeah. The bot is never going to know what it feels like to experience pain or to experience love or to experience sorrow or any of those things.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
It probably can be programmed according to ah, these are the facial expressions, the breathing, the emotions that convey pain. Therefore, the best way to react is this way. It’s a program, basically.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
It’s still a program.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Yeah.
A PIECE OF ADVICE, FROM DR. MARSHALL, TO COACHES AND LEADERS
Dr. Katrina Burrus
So, we’re coming to the end of our first period of a podcast, so I would like to ask you, could you give us some tips for coaches? Because this will be going to coaches and to leaders. What would be some of your advice?
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
My advice for coaches is very simple. The client I coached that I improved the most, I spent the least amount of time with, and he gave me this advice many years ago. His name is Alan Mullaly, was the CEO of Ford, probably the CEO of the year in the United States, amazing human being, 97% approval range for every employee, union, company.
So, I said, “Alan, all the people I coached, I spent the least amount of time coaching you and you improved the most. I made a chart: time spent with Marshall Goldsmith, improvement. There should be a negative relationship here.” So I said,
which I learned about coaching from you; he taught me one lesson I like to share with the coaches. He said, your whole job is always work with great people. There will be great people. This process always works. Journey with the wrong people never works. I only work with great people who care and are willing to try. And number two, don’t make coaching about yourself and your own ego and how smart you think you are. Make it about how proud you are of them.
Dr. Katrina Burrus
Wonderful. Thank you so very much, Marshall. Thank you.
Dr. Marshall Goldsmith
Yay.
